Preparing the Next Generation of Supply Chain Professionals | Episode 69

Hi, welcome to Tire Tracks. I'm your host today, Matt Silea. Here with me, I've got Andrew from John Carroll. Andrew, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Yeah. My name's Andrew Zeiser. I'm an Assistant Professor at John Carroll University in Cleveland, Ohio. I have my PhD in logistics. I teach a variety of supply chain management courses there. Just finished my third year up at John Carroll, so –

Nice. That's exciting.

Yeah, yeah.

No, that's awesome. What kind of drew you towards logistics and supply chain, especially in the education side of things?

Yeah, so make a long story short, I was a high school chemistry teacher.

Uh-huh.

I started as a pre-med major, but my grades deferred me from med school, the med school route. I taught high school for a few years, went back to get an MBA. Was a big –

Okay

- career changer.

Yeah.

Found ops and supply chain management. Thought it was really cool. Worked for a few years in industry, a couple food distribution companies.

Okay. That's awesome.

Making systems more efficient, finding too much inventory, figuring out ways to be more profitable, and then found my way back into academia. Went to get a PhD at The Ohio State University, and here I am now, so.

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. For context, my wife is from The Ohio State University. We're down in the Columbus area now. We're up in Delaware, Ohio, so –

Oh.

Yeah, very familiar. No, that's awesome. I like to ask that question because I came into logistics and supply chain, not that route. I came in from the- hey, you can hit the ground running with decent pay as someone that works in a warehouse, and slowly just kind of worked my way up through that network. In retrospect, as much as my career has given me really great opportunities, I do kind of wish I went the education route, because I feel like I could have made some of the steps in my career faster going that route. I kind of learned things probably more the more challenging way.

What's interesting about that is I got to work through the pandemic and COVID as an operations manager for a carrier, which is a super unique perspective into the industry and how things were. Given what you've seen, have you noticed that, hey, the trend of people being interested in supply chain from an academic perspective has been pretty consistent, or do you think some of the more recent global disruptions and things have put more people going, "Hey, why is this happening, and how can I help?"

That's a great point. 20 years ago, supply chain majors were much more less frequent than they are today. Most of the leaders in supply chain don't actually have supply chain degrees, but they – when we had our supply chain technology forum, which Alex from Banyan sat on a panel for, I had a panel on stumbled into supply chain careers.

Ah, yeah.

We had people that had no intention of being in supply chain and ended up there, and that's a familiar story.

Mm-hmm.

To answer your question, yeah, the toilet paper thing from COVID- that was the big driver. When high school students were seeing the parking lot of giant ships outside of LA Long Beach in COVID times, it started to make them think like, "Hey, what, what is this? What is this thing called supply chain?" More students come in now knowing they want to be supply chain majors than years ago.

Yeah. That totally makes sense. I mean the way everything shifted. That same moment – I was an operations manager at a carrier and loved what I did, but kind of seeing the global impact of it, I was like, "Oh, this is really interesting," and that dove me down an analytical and then technology rabbit hole, which got me where I am today. Yeah, it was very much – when I started at FedEx, however many years ago that was, really it was I could get benefits, and they paid really well, and I was 19-years-old. I never thought I'd be senior solutions engineer at a TMS. That wasn't the thought process.

Yeah. College kids, or high school kids coming into college now seem to have more of a plan than people my age did, you know?

Yeah, right.

People say, "I want med school, I want engineering, I want business," but that was it. Now you talk to 18-year-olds, and they're like, "I want this, this, this, this, and this." In turn, their plan might be way wrong, but they have one.

That's part of the fun of college, though, is figuring out if that plan was wrong or not.

Exactly.

How do you think that same shift impacted what you guys are teaching with supply chain? How have you seen the course structure change over the last few years?

Perfectly clear, I graduated with my PhD in 2022.

Okay. Yeah.

I wasn't teaching much pre-COVID.

Okay. Yeah. Okay.

But it's a lot easier to get real-world examples.

Yeah.

I talk about the toilet paper thing from COVID. I ask, "Where were you guys in COVID?" Everyone, it's a distinct memory that they all have in class. It's a lot easier to get those salient experiences and say, "Yeah, this is why that happened. This is the concept. This is the theory. This is how you saw it in practice."

Right. Right. Now, do those examples help? I'm assuming they do, but those help take models in the classroom and then apply it to real-world examples? Because I have to imagine, being on the heels of that, that's got to be just great coursework for modeling and running data and test data.

Yeah. There is something called the bullwhip effect, which intro to supply chain classes we play with in the first week. The bullwhip effect: there's a slight increase in customer demand, and what, like a bullwhip, you see amplifications of the demand as it goes up the supply chain. It happens in class, and we're playing this game. We've got four distinct supply chain tiers. We have a slight increase in the demand of cases of beer, which are poker chips in class. The simulation we run in class goes four cases, doubles up to eight cases, and you watch the students on the far end of the room, three or four supply chain tiers away, ordering 500 cases.

That was a thing called a bullwhip effect, which was discovered in the '50s and '60s, and it's still evident today. Now I can say, "Hey, by the way, do you remember COVID when you couldn't get furniture?" That was an example of the bullwhip effect. You relate those classroom simulations to real-world experiences, and it absolutely underscores the points.

Yeah. That's got to be so helpful for the students in those situations. Things I learned firsthand, and I remember going through it, and I just remember staring at full trucks of just random supplies and being like, to put it bluntly, "How the hell am I going to move this today? I don't have enough routes for it." But now it's like, hey, I can use that example as a model to help teach somebody else. Yeah, you can watch these trends, and based off of this, you can plan for this. You don't want to hire because the bullwhip effect. I don't want to hire for that volume because it could just be a quick spike in the data.

We're talking about these examples. You talked about the data, some of the visibility that it's very ample now. How do you see companies, and some of your previous students and stuff like that, how do you see them move from just seeing this data to then taking action and planning? How are you shaping that based off of this data?

Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, AI is a very powerful tool. It's really good at generating insights from data. It's really good at interpreting data and confidently declaring a solution.

Yeah, for sure.

It might be completely inaccurate, but it sounds convincing.

Right. Right.

What we're talking is we try to give some mental models, some frameworks, so that, understanding you have this experience you're living. It's some small part of whatever big organization, or the bigger world, you're a part of. How are the decisions you're making going to affect other people? That's the stuff I tend to focus on in the classroom.

No, that totally makes sense. I was going to ask on the AI side, and you hit on it pretty good about, hey, that data could be totally wrong. What kind of AI tools are you guys utilizing? Is it mostly analytics? Is it planning? Yeah, where are some of the gaps there? I'm very familiar that some of it; yeah, you get the hallucination of AI.

That's a great question. In the classroom, our students are certainly using it. It's certainly helping them on their assignments. Out in business, it seems, everybody's figuring it out right now as we go along. How do you guys integrate AI?

Great question. Visibility has been the big thing. I always like to position myself as a consumer at heart. I order something. You can't see it, but my computer is right in front of the window, so I can see my front porch. I order something on any site, whether it's Amazon or something else, my nose is against the glass. Which is a very common sentiment across most people, not necessarily on the supply chain side, but more further downstream where it turns into true e-commerce at that point.

For us, capturing that and trying to help people with the visibility. Where is my freight at? If my freight is late, what is the ETA? More predictive analytics is the space we're finding to be the most valuable as a TMS company to swim in. What's nice about that is that data is a lot easier to validate. You're using GPS locations. We're using voice agents right now to call the carrier and get the information. It's like being able to have your customer service person focus on the actual data, instead of having to sit and talk on the phone with FedEx. We're using the AI in that regard to take some of the pressure off of some of the folks on the operations side. But there's a lot of tools out there that do the analytics and stuff as well. I'm always cautious about those because I lived it for so long, where I'm like, I need to touch my numbers myself. I need to see my stops per hour in my hand before I can make an assumption on it.

When you talk visibility, you mean track, you mean tracing where freight is at the exact moment.

Exactly.

As part of my dissertation, we were doing interviews with companies. One of the recurring themes we got was about tracing your supply chain. Where are your suppliers? Where are their suppliers, so that we can tell if some hyper-local event, say it happens in a different country, or a different continent, is going to affect your supply chain? If it does, do you have a backup plan?

Ah, yeah. Right.

That's one of the great current tools and uses of AI for folks in supply chain. There are great

Providers out there who will take your supply chain and map your suppliers onto remote – where they are in the world- so that you can start to see, oh, this natural disaster that's happening is going to affect me, or is not going to affect me.

Yeah. It's fascinating. I remember a couple distinct events. The one that impacted me the most was, again, I'm from the FedEx world, is a terrible snowstorm in a weird part of the season in Memphis, and it was siloed to the south in the Memphis area, and that's FedEx's main hub. I'm up in Cleveland, Ohio, at the time, and people are like, "Well, I don't understand why my freight's late." I'm like, "Well, it's trapped in Memphis." They’re like, "That makes no sense to me."

Yeah.

Like you said, it's tracing it back. It's like, well, it's coming out of LAX, so it always has to go through Memphis. Then, because it's there, then it comes to Cleveland from there. You start to trace that further and further back, and you start to see those little things. It's funny, again, being on the FedEx side, I'm closer to probably the e-commerce side of things than anything else, but like ordering little trinkets and stuff from Temu. It's funny because I have the insight to know, yeah, that's sitting on a cargo ship. It has to go to a dock. It has to get picked up, drayage, and stuff like that. I'm like, yeah. Something all the way across the world is affecting why my little Knick-Knack I got for my daughter isn't coming on time.

Yeah. Exactly. You're probably sitting here from Ohio thinking, "Snow? Well, that's no big deal."

That's everyday stuff.

Every day, yeah. Every day stuff. Sometimes in April, sometimes in May, always in January.

Yeah. Right.

But a city like Memphis has no infrastructure for it, has no plows. Was that the blizzard back in 2013? Is that the one you're talking about?

I think so, yeah.

Because I was working at a food distributor and it hit our Atlanta DC, and, and we were like, "What, what's going on?" Then you see pictures and, you know, people had to abandon their cars because they were –

Right. Yeah. It's –

Atlanta couldn't deal with however much snow was there.

Right. Yeah. For sure. Yeah, it's funny how those things become super impactful on a global scale, especially when you start talking about large things where we're shipping it across border, and then you start adding in these other things. That's really cool that you guys look at AI to help you with that visibility and understanding, and understanding that. Then, one of the other things that we commonly see, I think, in the current world of logistics and supply chain is the risk and theft and some of those things. How much do you guys end up seeing the impact of theft? Or how much do you emphasize that in some of the, the classes you teach?

Well, certainly, it's becoming more popular to discuss. My understanding is, and I haven't touched freight. I'm a professor, right? I haven't touched an actual – I haven't touched a package, except for the ones that come to my house frequently.

Right. Yeah.

I've got two sitting on my doorstep right now from Costco. But people are talking about it more, so it's something I talk about more, because I want my students to be able to call up an example if they're getting interviewed.

Right.

You're way more connected than I am. But my understanding is that the criminals are getting more sophisticated.

Oh, so much. Yeah.

They bide their time and target the higher-value loads.

Yeah.

And the ones that can resell instantly, or quickly.

Yeah. Yeah. There’s a lot of cool tools out there to help with it, but you can't put out the tools as fast as these criminals are able to come up with new ways to be clever. The funniest thing, it actually happened, I think it was this week or last. Talking to a client, and we're trying to have a technical call and go over add-ons for the contract. He's like, "Look, I'm really focused on this issue. I actually was able to track down one of my own loads, and I'm pretty excited about how I did it." He's like, "Not to derail us, but can we focus?" He was so excited that he showed us all the steps he did, the technology used. It's fascinating because we're getting into this, and these bad actors are getting so sophisticated. Yeah, having those examples is definitely, probably super helpful for your students. Because when I first came into this, like, sure, it was happening, but probably just not to the degree I understood. It was probably happening more than I thought. Yeah, it seems like more and more these high-value loads are getting targeted a lot more frequently.

Yeah. I kind of equate it to students using AI to “cheat.” The students are always ahead of the detectors, right?

Yes.

In the same way that in the '90s, the baseball players using steroids were ahead of the testing.

Yeah, exactly. Right.

By the time the test catches up, there's another loophole. As long as the advantage is there, then it's going to be a problem. With freight, it's moving high-value loads. That's the advantage. How do you solve it? Stop moving high-value loads. That doesn't seem like a good solution.

Yeah. Yeah, you can't just stop doing that. You can't just stop shipping all of iPhones next order out. That goes back to what you're talking about with getting your students familiar with some of these AI trends and stuff as well, because the bad actors are using the same technology. The next generation's always thinking of more unique ways, and even me, in my current role, are thinking of things. It's fascinating to be like, "Okay, here's what I know the bad actors are using. Go run with this and tell me what you find." It's fascinating.

Right. There are some there are some red flag detectors you can put on in tracking freight as it leaves, right? Simple rules like, does it stop within X miles of leaving the depot? It could be a legitimate stop. Maybe the driver wanted to go to the bathroom, or grab a snack, or something. It could also be the driver parked, and his buddies are emptying the cargo.

Yup, exactly. Talking, again, about your students, and the shift, again, of people really being interested in supply chain logistics, what do you find that students are most excited for in the supply chain world? What are they most excited to learn about, or most excited to leave the classroom and go apply?

That's a really good question. What I think the beauty about supply chain is that we can take people, and when I'm trying to recruit undergrads to the major, I say, there's a place for everybody. If you want to do analytics, you love crunching numbers, give you a data set with tens of thousands of rows, and you want to create some awesome graphs, yeah, we need people like you, right? We need people like you to help make decisions faster. You want to be someone who doesn't touch a spreadsheet, who is on the phone talking to people all the time? Yeah, we need people like you.

Yeah. Right.

We need salespeople. You want to be someone that doesn't touch a desk, you're on your feet all day? Oh, my God. Can I point you to 100 different distribution centers in the Cleveland area who want leaders? Those are three of the paths that I see are possible. There's not any one perfect one.

No. That totally makes sense.

What I tell my students is if they ask me, and sometimes they do, sometimes they're sick of hearing me talk. You're probably sick of hearing me talk, but –

I love it. I've been doing this for 15 years. I'll talk all day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I push them into rotational programs.

Oh, that's awesome.

I say, find a rotational program, spend a few months doing purchasing, spend a few months doing ops.

That's awesome.

Spend a few months doing transportation. Worst case, you just find something you really don't want to do for the rest of your career. The fact that it has an end date is really useful.

It's funny, because I use a similar approach with my new hires when I was at FedEx, is I would rotate them around the warehouse of where I'd put them. Because one, it sucks to be the offloading person for six months straight before you start your next job. I would do two weeks on offload, two weeks on loading, two weeks in the dock sort, which was the nice area to be. Yeah, same. Because then you start to build that "Hey, I know I don't like that. I need to do whatever I can to not do that one thing."

You start to understand, oh, when the offloading guy does that, it makes my job easier. Maybe I should do that. It starts to build those connections between the organization, which can be really helpful.

Honestly, that's how I ended up excelling in the career I did, is I started as a handler working in a warehouse at FedEx. They rotated me around a little bit. I started to piece it together. I'm like, oh, if we're really struggling down here, it's going to impact me on this side of the sort. Then it slowly started to come together, where it's like, okay, well, if the flights are late, that means the sort's bad. If the sort's bad, that means my drivers can't get there on time. Then you start to compound that further, where you're like, okay, well, if all of this other stuff happened, that's why the flight's late. That's really where a lot of my interest started to come into play and how I ended up where I am.

You talked about having these three paths that you try to get them to go down, try to get in a rotational program. What do you think qualifies a strong supply chain leader coming out of your programs?

That's a great question, and it's something where I'm pretty much constantly asking people that are in the real world. Like, "Hey, how do we make sure that our graduates are doing well, are going to succeed?" Because ultimately, if the John Carroll graduates don't do well in the workforce, eventually, people are going to stop coming to John Carroll, and I'm not going to have a job, right?

Right.

That's a problem. The skills that leaders tell me are really important often don't align perfectly with the classroom setup. What leaders tell me they look for they look for people that can solve problems. Not just identify, "Here's a problem," but say, "Here's a problem. Here's how we're going to solve it, and it's already started. By the way, do you have anything I would maybe – do you have any ways of suggesting improvements?" "Nope, you're already on a good path." That clear ability to communicate –

Oh, it's huge.

It's huge, right? Sometimes the students will – you'll see these great dashboards. In my years as an analyst early, I could create spreadsheets that looked great, but often being able to quickly communicate those, whatever that was telling someone, either in an email, or in a short meeting to say, "Hey, this is why we're doing this. This is the direct benefit. I know it's going to be a slight inconvenience, but here is why we're doing it, and what the reason is," can help people. Those are the some of the critical thinking piece, that problem-solving skills. Leaders tell me they like to see resumes of people who are involved.

Yes. Yeah.

They already have some time management abilities. If they look at a student, everything else equal, and they see one is on a sports team, or in the band, or in some other extracurricular that they know takes up two to three hours of their day, or works a shift as a waiter three hours a week while managing school, they say, "Oh, that person has some time management skills, and they're going to be fine."

Yeah. Most of that aligns with what I used to look for. When I was a manager, I was always trying to find the next group of managers or supervisors that I could promote from within at FedEx. You hit on most of what I would look for. I need someone that can communicate. I need someone who can understand what's happening and wants to take action. One of the things, and it might be unique to just some people, like, I wanted someone who'd challenge the system a little bit, because the environment is always – it's a fast-paced, ever-changing industry. I always wanted the people on my team to come to me with ideas and suggestions that weren't the same way that I was thinking. I wanted my team to be like, "Hey, I like your idea, but can we try this?" I would try to empower my team as much as possible to be like, "Yeah, we're going to run your idea. We're going to switch up the routes for one day, and we're going to run it this way."

Just because they're seeing things on the road, in my case, when they were on road, that I wasn't seeing because I had, at that point, been off the road for three years. I'm like, "Yeah, maybe that is different." That's always something that I look for is I want the innovative person who's going to challenge the mold a little bit and have those communication skills. Because you can challenge the mold and kind of be a pain in the butt, but to have the communication skills to be like, "Hey, here's the data of why I want to try this. Here's what I think the outcome is going to be. Can we try it for a little bit?" I'm like, "Hey, do you want to be a manager tomorrow?" That's the perfect mindset to affect change in this industry.

Yeah. Asking why. You have an idea. You pilot it somewhere. Maybe instead of piloting across the whole FedEx network, you're like, "You know what? We're going to take this one section of one warehouse. Try this new idea and see if it works. If it doesn't, what did it cost us? If it does work, it could be a huge, huge benefit."

Huge benefit. Yeah. I had a couple really, really good drivers who would test new routes for me. The one lady would come back, and, well, her nickname was Bulldog, but she'd come back, and she would be like, "Oh, that was terrible. That route ran like crap. We're not doing it like that again. Let me see the map," and she rewrites it out. It's her own idea that we're testing. I'm like, I love the – That always drew me to a candidate where I'm like, yeah, I want someone who can be really analytical and try new things.

That routing is an example where you have all these awesome technologies and algorithms they can set. They can a route, but it turns out, it's the driver who's dealing with the consequences.

Yes.

Sometimes, maybe not the most perfect route is actually better for things like happiness.

It's fascinating, because we – When I actually was becoming a manager, I wanted to go back to school and get a degree in industrial engineering, because that was the closest thing I could really equate to it at the time to get me where I would need to be. But I worked really closely with our engineer at FedEx, and we're redoing all these routes, and we have applications for it that calculate most things. What's funny is you don't really know how successful it is until you go out there and do it. As much data as you can pour into it, there's always small factors. The one that always got me is I would do my route structure in the summer, because it's a little bit quieter on the shipping side before the peak season. Then the school year hits, and you don't realize how much a bus route from a high school or a middle school can actually impact your driver's performance. You're like, "I didn't think of that. This guy's going to be stuck behind that bus for four blocks, stopping." He can't do anything.

Yeah. That getting behind that school bus on the way to going through a school zone behind a school bus, when you're already late for work, it makes anyone stressed.

Yeah. Yeah. You have that same situation. You're trying to deliver 50 shipments by 10.30 in the morning, and you're like, "Well, that's not happening."

Yeah. Yeah.

What's one outdated supply chain mindset that you think the industry kind of needs to move away from?

Ooh, that's a really good question. Because of COVID, we saw this shift to this newly importance on resilience. We, all of a sudden, at the snap of the fingers, huge portion of companies out, just their suppliers basically turned off. If you didn't have a backup plan, and you were running a super lean operation, all of a sudden, one shipment was a little late, and you're starting to face the consequences. We've seen companies realize that resilience is more important. Maybe just the cheapest supplier isn't the only supplier I should have. Maybe I should have a backup, this idea of China plus one for companies sourcing stuff.  Because of COVID, a lot of companies started adopting this China plus one strategy, where, yeah, you know what? We've had this supplier in China for decade, for years, but we're going to at the same time put a small amount to a different supplier in a different country.

Now, what companies enacted for a lot of situations was they moved that second supplier to another low-cost country, also in Southeast Asia. When some of the new rounds of tariffs came in, and companies had set up operations in places like Vietnam, that didn't work out as well as they would like. This idea on resilience is becoming more important. It's what I write supply chain papers on that get in academic journals. But one of the lessons we learned through COVID was that it's okay to have a little bit extra inventory to not be the most lean operations. We're seeing companies that might be learning that lesson again. Seems like every day, or at least a couple times a week, I read a news article that says, “Blank, blank company is laying off a bunch of workers due to AI.”

Yeah. Yeah, right.

I'm also hearing that AI can do a lot of the entry-level work in a lot of fields. It hasn't yet gotten to a lot of supply chain fields yet. Especially in warehouse operations, right? It hasn't gotten there. We have cobots, we have conveyor belts, we have robots that can help, but it hasn't completely replaced humans.

Yeah.

I'm hearing stories that there's professions called legal engineers, who are non-lawyers who create legal documents with the help of gen AI. Then those are reviewed by senior lawyers. My red flag goes off when I hear that. I'm like, well, where are you going to get the senior lawyers in 10 years?

Yeah, where are you going to get those in 10 years? Yeah.

Because you're training non-lawyers to do this work. I think that's going to be a lesson. Saving cost is great. Super important to save costs.

Yeah. Right.

You save however many X thousand dollars in supply chain costs, it goes right to the bottom line. That's great. But I think there's going to be some eventual bill that comes due if you're cutting too many employees.

100%.

I'm hearing companies say like, "You know what? Maybe we don't need to hire junior employees. Maybe we'll just hire them after they've trained elsewhere."

Like, “Well, where am I going to get the experience?” Because the other place is thinking the same thing then, too.

If everyone thinks the same thing, where are the senior employees coming in five years?

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that. The one thing that, I think, goes with that so technology is such a great tool, but what I typically see is it's all or nothing sometimes in supply chain. It's the one spectrum where it's, I want to replace everybody with AI, and I want to have this really great tech stack, which is good to a degree. Then there's the other side where it's like, “Well, I've been using Excel spreadsheets for my entire warehousing operation across the country. It's worked this way for years, so why should I fix it?” It's like, well, there's a happy med- medium in there where it's like, some technology is going to allow you to be proficient. If you use the AI agents as a tool and not a replacement of a person, you're going to have really good success. Finding that middle.

It's always shocking to me how many times I meet with clients and prospects, and we’re like, "Okay, so what's your technology stack look like?" They're like, "So, I have Excel, and I have a lady named Judy who's really good at routing." I'm like, "Oh, no."

What happens when Judy retires, right?

Yeah. That comes up all the time. Yeah, it's funny how often it comes up.

As more powerful tools come out, sometimes we hear this push, and should we still be focused on Excel? It seems to be what the business world still runs on.

Yeah, 100%. What's interesting is the logistics side of things, especially if you're on the downstream of it like, it's one of the last industries to really adapt some of the technology. Some of the stuff that other sectors have been using probably a little bit more frequently than logistics. They've been using it for a while. Yeah, we're just catching up a little bit. So, it's interesting to see how that's happening on top of people still putting everything through Excel.

Exactly. Yeah. I'm still telling my students they should be using Excel. Especially, especially because the people my age, it's what we grew up on. If your leader wants it, kind of have to do it.

Yup. Yeah. Kind of have to do it. Still have to know macros. You can't get away from them.

That doesn't mean you can't experiment with things. You can't do small experiments to find better ways to do it.

Yeah, utilizing the other tools to make that Excel output more usable, more insightful. Well, hey, I think we're coming up on time. Before we sign off, is there anything you'd like to tell the viewers at home? Any socials, or anything like that?

No. This was fun. This was fun. This was super fun. Guys, you can find me on LinkedIn, sharing stuff about what I research and what we're doing in the classroom at John Carroll. I very much appreciate the invite. This was fun for me.

Yeah. It was a lot of fun.

It's summer break here. It's summer break, so instead of being on campus, I'm in my work-from-home office, so.

Appreciate it. Well, hey, thank you for your time today. For those of you at home, this has been Tire Tracks. You can find us on all the social medias, YouTube, etc., LinkedIn. I'm Matt Silea, you can find me there as well. Thanks for hanging out, guys.